Senator De Búrca asks questions to Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams MP MLA who addressed the National Forum on Europe on the Treaty of Lisbon (EU Reform Treaty)
95TH PLENARY SESSION
Thank you, Chairman. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh Gerry Adams anseo inniú agus tá súil agam go mbeidh díospóireacht spéisiúil againn faoi Chonradh Lisbon.
I would like to welcome Gerry Adams here this morning and I hope we have a very interesting ‑‑ I am sure we will ‑‑ debate and discussion about the Lisbon Treaty.
I would like to start maybe by being a little bit provocative and asking Mr Adams what would he say to those who argue that Sinn Fein’s opposition to the Lisbon Treaty and, indeed, to successive previous treaties are based on a deep philosophical difficulty that his party has with the concept of supranationalism, that is the pooling of sovereignty across a range of policy areas by individual Member States.
It is clear that Sinn Féin, as a political movement, was born out of a nationalist struggle where political identity was very bound up with territory and with concepts of national independence and self determination and that rather than seeing a supranational policy like the European Union complementing and enhancing the powers of the nation State, that his party actually sees the EU as undermining the nation State and whether he would comment on that.
Reply by Gerry Adams
The Republican position in terms of internationalism, going back to Déirdre’s question. James Connolly described it best. Internationalism he described as, from an Irish Republican perspective; a free federation of peoples. That is what he was looking for. Because you are small, as we are, does not mean that you should be treated any less equally. And it is a matter of uniting and trying to get on the core values from our perspective that I outlined here, trying to get that as a foundation as we move forward. And you can’t get everything. But, you know, to suggest, as appears to be — and a lot of the points I made were just missed.
Senator Déirdre de Búrca
Then the second question, I suppose, I have is in relation to the institutional reforms proposed within the Lisbon Treaty and obviously those reforms have been proposed in order to try to make decision making within the Union effective and to allow it to continue to be effective if the European Union is to acquire new members. And it would appear that the kind of insistence that Sinn Féin is making on every country having a Commissioner and holding on to existing vetoes would actually make it, if the European Union is to expand at all, would make it less and less possible for the European Union to make effective decisions or decisions within an effective and realistic period of time. And again just to ask is this reluctance to agree to the institutional reforms again borne of that fear of supranational decision making of the kind of qualified majorities that can operate very effectively in Ireland’s interest, but is that where Mr Adams party’s fear of those institutional reforms is coming from?
Reply by Gerry Adams
To suggest, for example, the loss of a permanent Commissioner is a good thing is blatantly a nonsense. Imagine there were no TDs here in Dublin. Would we go back and tell them it is okay, the TDs from Kildare will look after you, the TDs from Louth will mind you? You know, it is absolutely ridiculous.
Mary Lou has dealt with the point — and I always love watching faces, you know, when people are making a debating point. So when Joe said that I had said we would like to be involved in negotiations and then he says why weren’t you, and everybody’s face lights up. We were refused. We asked. We were denied an invitation.
But let’s if I may, just dealt with one of the people who was there – John Gormley. John was there and what did he say, what did the Green Party say? And, with respect, Déirdre, I don’t know whether the Green Party is for or against this and neither does the Green Party. But what John said about it was this: most of the real negotiations unfortunately took place behind closed doors. The idea of open sessions was a myth. There were over 1,000 amendments offered but no votes were taken on any of them and most were never even discussed.
So, in summary, just in terms of where we come from, all of this, we want to see people voting no and we want to see a better Treaty negotiated. Anyone who said, and this is implicit, I think, in some of the answers, that it is not practical or efficient to have 27 Commissioners. I mean catch yourselves on. In the Dáil here there are 15 ministers and 20 junior ministers for a population of less than four million. So how can you argue against 27 Commissioners to represent more than 500 million? Let’s, you know, be serious about how we proceed on all of these issues.
Senator Déirdre de Búrca
The third point just to mention, Mr Adams referred to
Reply by Gerry Adams
And in terms of agriculture and do we have a veto or don’t we have a veto? I mean my clear understanding, and I cited quite consciously because it is a point of agreement between us; the position which Enda Kenny outlined when he said that we should use our veto. But he went on to make the point, and no-one has responded to this, that if Lisbon goes through we will lose that. So what do we do the next time if there are issues there which are not to the benefit of any sector, and the WTO is a current issue of some urgency.
Senator Déirdre de Búrca
In terms of workers’ rights, I do think a little more balance could be brought to the points he makes about worker’s rights. The European Trade Union Confederation is supporting the Lisbon Treaty and I think it is important to point out that the European Union was pushing for a directive on agency workers to be agreed. And, in fact, it was this country and one or two others that actually didn’t allow that to happen. So, you know, I think it is a little unfair to say that the European Union has not been proactive in trying to defend workers’ rights.
Reply by Gerry Adams
The Social Clause, and Joe Higgins dealt with this very eloquently, it does not provide any meaningful mechanism. It does not equality proof anything. And I note that no trade union in Ireland has so far said yes to this Treaty. Not one. In fact, UNITE have said that they are against it and, you know, let’s be careful, in the spirit that Billy outlined his position, that we accurately reflect the position on these issues. There are no protections for public services.
— In terms of the old issue of worker’s right and conditions, and this is a fairly crucial issue. We saw it here in Irish Ferries. We saw the despicable way that people here were being treated, being almost in Dickens type conditions were being paid because they happened to be either agency workers or people from other States. And I mean the proposition is quite simple. How you deal with this is quite straight forward. You ensure that all workers have the same conditions, the same terms and the same pay. Thai is how you do it. And, incidentally, this is not just right, that is not just just, but if there is a decline in the economy that is what will guard us against racism, that is what will prevent this awful crisis of economic inequality becoming much more evil and much more divisive to the people who live on this island
Senator Déirdre de Búrca
And the last point maybe just in relation to the issue of scare mongering. I would accept sometimes that I think in people’s enthusiasm to try and get the Treaty supported, it may sound as though they are putting unbelievable pressure on those who are on the no side. But equally I think there is a responsibility on those on the no side to be accurate in what they say. And it has been my experience at a number of public meetings that some of the Sinn Fein local councilors who have been coming to meetings and making points about the Treaty have not been accurate in what they are saying. So just to make the point that I think it is important for the no side to be accurate and perhaps for the yes side not to scaremonger. Thank you.
Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams MP MLA addressed the National Forum on Europe on the Treaty of Lisbon (EU Reform Treaty)
